Over the years, I had the pleasure to encounter many amazing women who are just as passionate about science and education as I am. But when I discovered Soapbox Science it felt like I had finally found my tribe.
My relationship with these women reaches far out of the events that we run or the meetings we plan every month – it has become an important and rewarding part of my life and I respect every single member of our Berlin group and their work very much. Their opinions matters to me, I frequently ask for support and feedback regarding my own work and I enjoy learning from them whenever we spend time together.
I met Marta Alirangues Núñez some time in April 2019, when we both attended a 500 Women Scientists Berlin meeting at a restaurant. We both ended up sitting next to each other that evening and became fast friends.
Marta is a PhD Student at Leibniz-Institute of Freshwater Ecology and Inland Fisheries where her research focuses on the development of aquatic plants in lakes and the role they play in water quality. More recently, she was elected by the entire female workforce of the Forschungsverbund Berlin (FVB) to be the first FVB Central Equal Opportunities Officer for a four-year term. I was immediately impressed by her experience, how she presented ideas – and most of all her warm nature and her kindness.
Back in April, she also told me about Soapbox Science and after the first event I attended in summer 2019, I asked Marta if I could join, too. I loved what I saw there and was really into the idea of becoming part of such an amazing group of women.
Soapbox Science is a public outreach format for promoting women scientists and the science they do. Our events transform public areas into an arena for public learning and scientific debate; they follow the format of London Hyde Park’s Speaker’s Corner, which is historically an arena for public debate. With Soapbox Science, we want to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to enjoy, learn from, heckle, question, probe, interact with and be inspired by some of our leading scientists. No middle man, no PowerPoint slide, no amphitheatre – just remarkable women in science who are there to amaze you with their latest discoveries, and to answer the science questions you have been burning to ask. Look out for bat simulators, interactive experiments or giant pictures of volcanoes. Or simply hear them talk about what fascinates them, and why they think they have the most fantastic job in the world! – Soapbox Science
During the first meeting, I got to meet everybody else who was part of Soapbox Science in Berlin. I remember being a bit shy because everybody already knew each other and I saw how close everybody was. However, I was welcomed into he group immediately and all my worries were unfounded.
At this meeting I also got to know the brilliant Dr. Carolina Doran.
Carolina, a Portuguese-Brazilian biologist, is our team lead who brought Soapbox Science to Berlin in 2017.
Besides offering an open ear for everybody and always having great advice, she is a postdoc researching the development of collective patterns of behaviour in group living animals at the Leibniz Institute of Freshwater Ecology & Inland Fisheries.
Both Marta and Carolina show a lot of initiative and drive, both in their jobs and whenever they volunteer their time for different projects, so I feel especially lucky that we found some time to sit down and talk about a topic that is dear to us – the role of women in science.
Carolina, you started Soapbox Science Berlin. How did that come to be? How did you first hear about it?
Carolina: I did my Ph.D. at the University of Bristol and, at the time, one of the founders of Soapbox Science, Seirian Sumner, was a Lecturer there. I was immediately drawn to it, because it is a public outreach event that has a super cool format and is able to do something quite unique – get the attention of unexpected audiences. People who were not expecting to go to a science event and just happened to be at the right place at the right time. In complete honesty, at the time, it was not clear to me the value of promoting women in science through science communication. I have learnt so much since then.
When did you join, Marta? Did you always want to be part of a women centric outreach programme or was it a happy accident?
Marta: I joined Soapbox Science Berlin in 2018, when they were recruiting new members for the team to help organise the event in June 2019. Actually, I wanted to join from the very beginning (2017) but due to work and health issues I decided to postpone it. And now it has become a very important part of my life that gives me the extra energy and inspires me to go on with all the other activities in my day-to-day life. There, I have met amazing women that keep on challenging me everyday, making me question my beliefs and the ideas that this patriarchal society we have grown up has so deeply rooted in me.
I’m now the pretty much the co-leader of Soapbox Science Berlin, but becoming part of a women centric outreach programme wasn’t something I had planned. I have always been involved in groups that work and fight to create a better society, to change the system and challenge the established views and ideas. So, as an unapologetic feminist scientist seems like a natural way to end up working in a group like Soapbox Science.
What was it like to be a woman studying your field? Did you feel supported and challenged in a positive way? Did you have a network of people to reach out to?
Carolina: Since the beginning of my research career I don’t think I have ever been in a space where women were not a minority. Luckily, my PhD supervisor had (and still has) a lot of belief in me and his support allowed a very successful PhD. I would not say I ever had a good support network before Soapbox Science. I encountered many wonderful people during my journey, some of them I am lucky to call friends, but never a network as such. Unfortunately, the lack of such a network started taking its toll during my postdoctoral years. I received a lot of unfair treatment and I firmly believe implicit bias to be the reason. I recently talked about this in a webinar – Breaking Stereotypes: Why is gender representation important for Science communication.
Marta: Interestingly, for me it was a little different than for Carolina. During my Bachelor degree (Environmental Sciences/ Ecology) there was around a 50:50 female:male ratio, maybe there were even more women. Now that I think about it, what is interesting is that most of the professors and other scientists teaching us, both during the Bachelor and (even worse) during the Master degree, the vast majority were men. Where did all women go? Spoiler alert: leaky pipeline.
To be honest, I didn’t feel specially supported during my studies, it felt more of a bureaucratic process rather than educating future scientists or managers or ecologists or you name it, and this was regardless of our gender. There were exceptions, of course, those people that truly inspired me and they did make a huge difference. The first person that comes to my mind is the professor teaching plant physiology: in the beginning, no one was really interested in the topic but his way of approaching it, of transmitting his passion, made me and many others fall in love with the course. Studying for the final exams didn’t feel like a burden (or not as much as in other courses). And this showed me how important it is to have people in science that want to inspire future generations and the impact that has.
First time I felt I started to have a network of people to reach out to in my field was when I went to The Netherlands to do my Master thesis (and then I got a job as a research assistant in the same institute – NIOO). There I felt truly supported, people were open and willing to teach me, no judgement if I didn’t know something, whether it was basic or not. All the people I had the luck and privilege to work with during that time inspired me to become a researcher, my experience there was like a seed of curiosity that was planted inside me and I wanted to continue watering, but this time somewhere else. Before, I had never considered becoming a researcher, I was always more of an applied person, fully hands-on in the field. So, one is not always “born” a scientist, one can “discover” oneself in the process.
Why do you think so many girls and women are still underrepresented in our area and professional field?
Carolina: This is a huge question and there are many many reasons. We start socialising children at a very young age on who they should become depending on their gender. Teachers, parents, friends, colleagues, . . . everyone has an impact. Girls grow up believing science is not for them. Creating role models is an important way to change that perception, but unfortunately even those can sometimes also have detrimental effects. In many parts of the world there has been an improvement, and many more girls and women are pursuing careers in science, but as the well known ‘leaky pipeline’ shows, they tend to leave at a much higher rate than men. After giving the webinar I mentioned, I received so many messages from other female scientists who identify with my experience. I am of course happy I was able to reach so many people, but it is also very scary to realise how systematic the unfair treatment of women is. So of course women leave.
Marta: Yes, Carolina is right – A big question with many answers and many aspects. We can start by looking at the different ways girls and boys (staying in the binary definition that prevails in our society – this is another big and important topic) are raised, all the way from the crib: “you are such a princess”, “you’re going to be so strong” (I’m sure you have associated each sentence with a particular gender, if not, congratulations). Girls are told that they are better and associated with certain disciplines like education, languages, or anything related to “care duties”, while boys are told to be better in maths, physics and other sciences. And both are pushed away from what’s associated with the other gender. It is important to show them that they can succeed equally regardless of their gender. From an early age girls are shown that they don’t belong in the world of STEMM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths and Medicine). We are biased since we are very young. There is a very interesting study where kids were asked to draw a scientist and the vast majority drew a male scientist. But there is hope, a recent study has shown that this is changing although there is still a long way to go.
On the other hand, there are a lot of obstacles a woman in science faces during her career that contribute to the leaky pipeline (loss of women as one advances in the academic career), from toxic working environments, lack of institutional support (especially when it comes to work-life balance as still most of the family and care responsibilities fall on women), lack of role models and the big and well-known pay gap. It is important that we create more inclusive, diverse and healthy working spaces, one where we as individuals matter, not only how many papers we publish. Healthy environments allow people to thrive.
What are we going to do to combat existing forms of discrimination?
Marta: Together with Carolina I’m co-coordinating Soapbox Science Berlin that aims to give visibility to women and other under-represented groups in science. The first thing we always want to keep in mind is to be open to learn from others, to question our ideas and understand our privileged position in this world as white-cis-European woman and what we can do from there. Then comes the part of playing an active role in changing this situation and trying to raise awareness because, in my opinion, the first step to change the current situation is to realise that discrimination (whether it is based on gender, race, religion, sexual orientation…) is still deeply rooted in our society, that we are conscious- and unconsciously biased (check this short video and let me know what your answer is, I can tell you that my answer the first time I saw it was the expected one). Once people recognize that, we can start working together to create a more inclusive society. In order to do so, I participate and support platforms and activities that promote inclusion and diversity. As an example, in 2019 after attending the “I, Scientist Conference”, I (together with a group of other very inspiring people, Carolina included) was part of the creation of the Diversity and Inclusion group in the research institute where I work. Last January we organised a colloquium about unconscious bias (“How equal is science? Unconscious discrimination and what to do about it” by Dr. Lina Vollmer) that was a huge success with one of the highest attendance to a colloquium in our institute.
I also would like to add that, in order to be part of the change, we don’t necessarily need to join a group, because all forms or discrimination are part of our daily lives and there we can make a very important impact. Get informed (very very important, and from reliable sources), listen to the people and speak up when witnessing unfair and discriminating situations.
Carolina: Marta already put it really well. What I could add here is that we use a lot of our free time to organise Soapbox Science. Being part of this amazing initiative has forced me to learn a lot about Equity, Diversity and Inclusion. I have since become an unapologetic advocate of those. I have co-founded the Diversity and Inclusion group at the institution where I am conducting my current research project. There we work with all levels of management to eradicate unfair and unjust practices and support a sustainable, dynamic, collaborative environment. I strive to always speak up when I witness unfair treatment, whether to myself or to others. Previously I would shy away from discussing equality with friends to avoid making people feel uncomfortable, however I have learnt the importance of not staying silent – I always speak up. I no longer underestimate the power of a good conversation – we never know how much influence we might have.
You are very active in science communication, what are your least favorite and favorite things about working with the public?
Marta: My least favourite thing is that science communication and outreach is not yet valued and considered as an important part of “doing science”, of being a scientist, which means that I need to, either do it during my free time, or spend time and energy convincing my supervisor that is worth to spend some of my time on it. Luckily, this situation is changing and science communication is becoming more and more relevant. In my opinion, we need to build bridges between science and society if we want to achieve real change, regardless of the field where one works. We need to get down from our pedestal, go to the streets and speak a language people can understand. And this has proven to be extremely important during these crazy times we are living.
There are so many aspects I love about science communication. To name a few: I love to see the moment of discovery in people’s eyes, that moment when they realise they have learned something new and they like it! While preparing my talks, I need to take some distance from my research, I need to translate it into a language that anyone, not only people specialised in the field, can understand. This is not so easy since in our daily lives at work we are surrounded by other scientists that speak the same or similar very specific language (in my case, “Limnologish”) as we do. And this is a very important step because it helps me to better understand my research and see the relevance of it in the real world. And, of course, I like the idea that by speaking in front of the public, I’m challenging the conception they have on how a scientist looks and that there are also women in science.
Carolina: Science communication has always been the space where I truly felt my passion for research was appreciated. I always learn so much about my own research by preparing my communication and also by all the interesting questions and discussions. It is just how Marta said: It’s amazing to engage with the public and see how much thirst for knowledge people have. My least favourite thing is the fact that in terms of advancing my career this work is not appreciated and I often have to sacrifice family time for it. I do it nevertheless because I consider it to be my duty as a scientist. Why should I produce knowledge if I am then just keeping it to myself?
What would you tell a little girl about the challenges and struggles (but also the positive things) in joining this path a similar path to yours?
Carolina: Being a scientist is an amazing adventure. It’s a unique job where you get to dive deep into the questions you find interesting and share it with the world. It’s a multicultural environment and a space where you often meet people that, just like you, are passionate about a very specific topic. I would tell the little girl that there might be times, people around her might disagree and have different ideas of what she should do. I would tell her that it is totally fine to agree with them, and that is also totally fine to disagree.
It’s okay to try different things and it is okay to take time to decide what she wants to do. She can change her mind whenever she likes and she should never choose work over wellbeing. Never!! Science is not the only domain being affected by inequality and regardless of what she wants to do, the way forward is to find a support network early on with people that make her feel heard and valued. With people who appreciate her opinion and also help her grow when opinions differ. What do you think Marta, did I forget something?
Marta: No, I 100% agree with everything you have said, Carolina – Well put! But I would also add, that if she wants to be a scientist, if she is curious, she should go for it! Nowadays, there are many possibilities to get a glance into the scientific world from very early, even while being in highschool. And this is very important because, back then when I was a teenager, I had literally no idea what science was and how a scientist looked like, even less how a female scientist looked like. So, how was I even going to imagine myself being a scientist if I didn’t even know what they looked like? And by participating in such activities they will hopefully see that there is a place for them in science.
There is also of course the situation, very common too, that one realises that wants to be a scientist later in life, during the bachelor or the master (or even later), and that doesn’t make her less of a scientist. There is this idea in our society that true and successful scientists knew they wanted to be one since always, that they are geniuses all the way from high school to PhD. Nothing further from reality. Scientists are people that are curious about certain aspects of this world and decide to satisfy this curiosity by becoming researchers, by asking questions, performing studies and experiments to try to get closer to the answer. And pursuing a career in science is not easy and not always pretty but, remember little girl, you have every right to be there, to claim your position in academia. But it is also more than okay if at some point you decide to start walking a new path out of the scientific world.
And, don’t let others (or yourself) make you believe you don’t deserve to be there, if you have gotten a position in science it is because you deserve it!
Thank you for this amazing and insightful interview, Carolina and Marta!
Connect with Marta: Twitter, Scholar, LinkedIn
Connect with Carolina: Twitter, Scholar, LinkedIn
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